The Art of Playful Leadership: Capoeira’s Path to Empowering Teams, with Guido Heijmans

Servane Mouazan: Welcome to Be and Think in the House of Trust. My name is Servane Mouazan from Conscious Innovation and in this series, I create a thinking environment with people who ignite social and environmental change. They do that in various ways and together we look at the conditions that generate more trust, more effective and kind collaborations to meet the world's needs. My guest in the house today is Guido Heijmans as known as Mestre Salsicha. And I've known him since way back in the 90s in the Netherlands. Almost 30 years ago, he took a first class of Capoeira, which is a Brazilian martial arts. He took it with Mestre Vladimir Frama and he never left. There's more to say, so stay in to discover what we can learn from Capoeira as an art when we want to generate wonder and change. Hi Guido.

Guido: Hi Servane

Servane Mouazan: I'm so excited to have you here on the show.

Guido: It's great. Thanks a lot for the invitation and great to see you again and to hear you again after such a long time.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah. So we know Capoeira We'll be discussing what it is and your definition of, you know, essentially product of the diaspora. And it has many features and I'm really interested here to learn what we can, learn from it that help us understand how teams can evolve, learn from each other and develop as entities almost. And my first question for you is, imagine that someone is unable to see or hear first. How would you describe Capoeira to a person like that, its magic and what it represents?

Guido: Yeah. If you do not know capoeira and you have never seen or heard about it, imagine people forming like a tribal circle and they are making percussion music on all the instruments, they're clapping and singing together. And then in the middle of that circle, two people start to play an athletic game. They use cartwheels, they use roundhouse kicks, they're trying to dodge and trip each other. So it's like a very playful martial art game that is happening inside the circle on the beat and the music and the singing of these people. this all starts pretty slowly and then advances to faster music. And the games also speed up. So this will generate a lot of energy, in between both the players inside the circle and also the people supporting them with the music around them. That's how we play Capoeira.

Servane Mouazan: So it's not just about what happens in the middle, but it's the entity of it all, the whole happening for the entire group.

Guido: Yes. Basically, when you see Capoeira as a sport, you can even see it as an individual sport because it's, it's you against one other player. But when you see the, the Capoeira in practice it's, it's, it's a team effort. It's a circle of people supporting each other and also challenging each other at the same time. And the challenging can be on a musical level, it can be inside the circle on a physical level. So there's many layers to this sport.

Servane Mouazan: Bit of complexity. Great, right. So when you think of the group, the group component, what matters? Why is that so important?

Guido: Well mainly because we play music so we're actually all together, whether there's 10 people or 100. This is a musical band playing. So in that way you're already connecting to each other in a very deep way, which all musicians know. So. But then at the same time we are also martial artists which creates a very different environment to be in because a Capoeira Roda can be very harmonious. A Roda is a circle, but it can also be quite dangerous and challenging. Ah, people can, can you know, test each other with the kicks or the tricks or the dodging and whatnot. So this creates a very intense environment. And in that environment you connect to other people without talking. You connect while singing or clapping or looking at each other. And also playing gap witha in the circle is quite intense for us, it's normal. But

Guido: mainly when I hear people who practice it for the first time or, or it's their first time inside a circle, usually what they say afterwards, like wow, this is super intense. Especially when there's more people in the circle. There's like 20, 30, 40 people making music for you, that gives a lot of energy to the middle of the circle where you are playing this other person who's kicking you. so this is quite a. Yeah, it's quite intense. And I think that's one of the reasons that an art form that really connects you to the other players in a deep way.

Servane Mouazan: So there's a lot of reading, reading that needs to be happening. Reading the context, reading the player in front of you, reading yourself. And I remember when the first time I played it a long time, decades, decades ago where in my first sessions I actually forgot to breathe. It was so intense. And Vladimir, our master, he was saying just, you know, you can breathe. It s just your level of redness, you're going to explode. So please. So that leads me to, you know, from the reading your context, reading the person next to you, reading the situation. how do you find ease when there's so much intensity going around you?

Guido: I'm just bringing my daughter, she 7 years old, to swimming class. And I see her panic when she jumps in the water. like where am I? What is happening? What should I do? I don't want to drown. Maybe it's in the beginning, bit similar like that. Not quite, but I'm m just trying to make an example. and then slowly you learn how to stay with your head above the water, how to look around, where's the other people? How big is this pool? You know, so I guess it's quite similar like that. And slowly but surely you learn, with your master who is guiding you, how to behave in a circle, what are the do's and the don'ts. And how to express yourself while still maintaining like this ancient culture that has already been around for hundreds of years. There is some rules, but you can break them. And all this is quite, you know, it's quite a lot And only the people who really invest a lot of time and their whole life, they will become the experts and the masters of this art form.

Servane Mouazan: So there is a lot of gradual coming into that place, learning bit by bit. And I also remember, you know, there is a responsibility because we want to do well, we want to perform well. Ah, there is a visual element of it you don't want to

Guido: exactly

Servane Mouazan: Create trouble... So I'm always making a, you know, a little parallel with organizational life. And I wanted explore with you what is it that you do to avoid being too performative? You know, just to really find again find the ease and being really present with others so that you can enjoy it, but also learn well and be in the moment. What are the things that you would as you're master now, what would you invite people to think about or to experiment with, to not just being the performative thing, but just to really be in a moment.

Guido: Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Like Capoeira is an athletic sport. And it's a beautiful way of moving. So you want to move in a beautiful way as you see the other players do. so this is also part of the competition, like who can do the most beautiful movement, who can do the most beautiful cartwheel or somersault or complex movement with the back. And we all want to do these movements because they're so beautiful. And that's one of the attractions of the game as well. It's not only the martial art aspect, because if you're into that, maybe it's better to do kickboxing or another sport that totally focuses on that aspect. And Capoeira is very complex because it also you want to play in a beautiful way. You want to play in a way according to what is, you know, the way in your group. Because there's different ways to play Capoeira So your head is full with all these things. And the only way to be able to relax basically is go with the flow. You can train Capoeira you know, you train the basic moves, you train some sequences, you train some exchanges of kicks and dodges and gymnastic part of it, but then inside the circle and none of that matters so much because now you're with a different

Guido: person and unexpected things happen. So to be able to react to the unexpected things, you need to relax and go with the flow. And maybe also your movement will be different than what you trained even in, in in your training before. And this surprise is actually what people are looking for in Capoeira Like I like to be surprised. I like to surprise myself as well. because that makes gives you a different kind of energy. Like, wow, something new happened today. and basically that's one of the biggest attractions of Capoeira And how can you stay calm in the eye of the storm, you know,

Servane Mouazan: Stay calm in the eye of the storm.

Guido: Yeah, that's how it feels like. You know, sometimes the other person is better trained. It overwhelming you with loads of kicks and he's faster, she's faster, or doing beautiful movements you cannot do. And then you can start doubting yourself or whatever, but it doesn't matter. You just play and you're inside the game. And you can, even when you play for a longer time, get into a kind of a transe like state. When you, when you do that, it's not probably what you will experience when you do Capoeira for the first time, but it's definitely possible. And also, not only masters can feel this. Also the students can feel this. I'm totally in the moment and I'm just doing whatever is in the moment and I'm not thinking about it.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah, thising of that aspect of listening within that becomes quite interesting. I imagine as well being a situation when you have people who do these fantastic, very visual moves, very acrobatic things etcetera. But you think that actually first I don't want to do. I can't do them right now because my back says no. And maybe that's not what's required just now. Maybe it's pausing, maybe it's slowing down. Maybe. So, you know, all the kind of flashy stuff might not be necessary. And I just do a parallel with, organizational life, where people flashes all their skills and competenc, but actually the moment requires just attention or I support and encouragement, but not the list of all the skills you need just right now.

Guido: Well, that's. We have two concepts in, capoeira as you know. They're called "malandragem" and "malícia". These are Portuguese words for like, the fundamentals of capoeira culture. And, they both mean being cunning, being smart, knowing your environment, knowing people, knowing how to react to people, and also seeing what people are not seeing. So, one of the famous examples in Capoeira you start a game, you shake hands, and you smile to the other person. This is not because everybody is always happy and smiling. This is because you're not showing maybe your anxiety or your fear of the other person. No, you're smiling because you want to relax. And maybe your smile will also relax the other person. These kind of small things are very fundamental in Capoeira and all the capoeiristas know them. So this creates somebody, who actually understands it is in the environment. And that's a different thing than doing a somersault or doing like a very complex acrobatic move. And it's sometimes very funny when somebody does a complex acrobatic move and the other person is just holding his foot in front of the face of the other. Like, yeah, you haven't seen it coming! This is a bit more important right now. So, you can be flashy in Capoeira and we all like to be flashy in Capoeira Beautiful. And we like to be, you know, explosive with the kicks and fast. And you like to be a winner. And, you'd like to defend yourself, your physical integrity also, because Capoeira in its basics, is a defensive martial art. All these things yeah make for a very complex, culture where you actually incorporate this malandragem and malícia, these two concepts. And when you incorporate them, then they become your intuition. And then I think you, internalize these things. And you can also use them outside of the capoeira circle. So you can use them not only for the support, but also in your social contacts outside, or in your job or in your family or how you relate to other people.

Servane Mouazan: So inner listening, social listening. How do you... do you have a story about how you use your learning from Capoeira? Your capoeira intuition into your outside life. If you have an outside life outside capoeira,

Guido: Actually I don't.

Servane Mouazan: That's gonna be hard. So what would you say, or how did you do that in the past? Mmmm.

Guido: Well, no, the most obvious thing is, I started Capwita in the Netherlands. And then you learn some parts of this culture already. And then when you start to go to Brazil, you actually feel where this is coming from. Because these concepts like malandragem are not only exclusive to capoeira you know, they are inside, a lot of parts of the Brazilian culture. I remember the first time I was in Brazil. What struck me was on the pavement in like in the Netherlands, when the pavement is crowded, people are a bit clumsy and they bump into each other or they don't know which side to go. In Brazil, there's like a million people in the pavement and everybody is flowing, like weaving into each other, like. Yeah, you know, the ginga of Capoeira So this was one of the first things that struck me. There was like, wow, these people move in a very fluent way. So. And that's of course also the same thing in Capoeira

Servane Mouazan: So the jinga for the listeners, ginga means the swing.

Guido: Yes, it's the basic step for Capoeira is the first thing you learn. It's like walking from left to right, like stepping, actually, not walking. It's the purpose is to not stay in one position but to move all the time. To be flexible and to move out of the way of the opponent, but also to prepare maybe an attack. And even the football players, the soccer players from Brazil, have a ginga, like the dribble l, you know, Ye, so it's it's like the footwork.

Servane Mouazan: It's that footwork allows you to, to be ready, to be very much in the moment. And if you're in doubt, you can always come back to it.

Guido: Yes, exactly. Because you're swinging from side to side and this way you are actually preparing yourself also for maybe an attack that's coming to you or. And I remember early on, when I was playing Capoeira once, my master Vladimir, our master, said like, you need to do more ginga more, more moving. And I was like, yeah, I'm moving like hell, I'm training, I'm moving. He said, no, but you're trying to do the right move on the right moment. and it's not always possible, so you need to move more. So just to be able to be like water to flow around. So you are Difficult to catch for the other person. And that was a good lesson as well.

Servane Mouazan: Be more water

Guido: Because you want to do. Yeah, you want to do everything in the right timing and the right movement, which is not possible 100% all the time.

Servane Mouazan: So that reminds me of the performative things that we were earlier mentioning.

Guido: Y ye.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah. So we talked about different concepts here. Being in a moment, being in a movement, paying attention, giving attention, being the receiver of attention, being one with the group, the entity, whilst keeping your individuality and your ways of expressing yourself. So in what other ways do you believe the principles of Capoeira or can be applied within a team?

Guido: well, my experience is that Capoeira creates a very profound and deep connection to people. and that can be after 30 years of playing together. It can also be after one day of enjoying capoeira We give a lot of workshops and lessons, around, around the country, for schools and also for. For companies. And Basically what you notice immediately when you, when you perform Capoeira with a group is that everybody can have its own space and its own.

Guido: Freedom basically. So the circle is round, so you don't have one head at the table. There is somebody leading the music. That's a thing of ancestrality and, and who is more experience. So probably that person will lead the circle with the music and also command the games. Probably the master of the capuita group. but inside that format, everybody's free to do his own thing. You can, you can do your own expression, you can. Everybody is allowed to do, to move the way they want to move and to behave the way they want to behave. And of course there are exceptions and there's a, you know, there's a maximum to that freedom. But basically what I love about Capoeira is it's so inclusive and it is so gives you so much freedom to do your thing. Ah, so it's a group thing, but not like everybody's moving in the same way. Ah, so what you see in our group,

Guido: for example, that every teacher has his own way of moving. You have your own body. And this is actually encouraged. So They don't need to be conform. They don't need this conformity of. To look exactly like the other people and do exactly. And sometimes this also happens in Capoeira groups and people are very similar and they have one type of clothing. And these things also exist in the Capoeira world. But for us it's not the main. The main thing, you know, main thing is your individual freedom inside this Circle, I guess that's what, what attracts a lot of people to Capoeira it as well m and also makes it so inclusive because we don't have categories. You know, a hundred kilograms of muscular men can play with a child or with, you know, a, 50 kilo female. I've seen people very strong and very well trained and big, taken down by just one.

Servane Mouazan: Much lighter.

Guido: Yeah, like, you know, taken down or kicked by people who are. Were like 50, 60 kilograms. And. And that's the fun of it. And then people are cheering like ye. It's so nice to reverse all, these fixed notions in society. They say also in Brazil, like, it's the "O mundo de pernas pro ar". it's the world upside down. So it's the world with the legs in the air, you know, so the world is upside down. Anything can happen. So you can expect anything from anybody. And this is also, even from a martial artist perspective, a very useful aspect of Capoeira I don't underestimate anybody. You know, I think these concepts are very fundamental to Capoeira and you can use them in any group or your family or team.

Servane Mouazan: So we've got themes like encouragement, power sharing, breaking stereotypes, learning, freedom of expression, protection, malice, and fun and joy. All of these. It's just a sort of small window into your world, into the world of Capoeira. But I hope that people can take, the metaphor and see how they can maybe test new ways of being in their teams. I wonder, I'mean, I could talk with you for ages, but we're slowly coming to an end. Is there a question that I haven't asked, so far that you would feel is a brilliant one to ask you in this context of, you know, learning from Capoeira to care for each other, to grow together.

Guido: I think we covered a lot already. I hope for the listeners some, things will be more difficult to grasp if you don't know Capoeira maybe. I hope that the things we discussed, are clear at this point. A question about Capoeira in this sense. Yeah. Lots of people always ask me when they are not training yet or when they are interested in Capoeira it's too difficult. Is this for me? You know, can I do this? And I asked myself the same question when I started Capoeira Like the first years are pretty intense and you learn a lot. It'a steep learning curve, especially if you're not Brazilian, you're from another culture. But the answer is always that Capoeira is for everybody and it's it may look really difficult at first, like the movements and the whole culture is different but actually when you play then you play and it's the same as my kid is now taking swimming classes or your. You're playing like a child and that's basically the joy that we get from Capoeira. So most people ask me well I would like to do it but for me it's way too hard. If you reverse that and you say no, it's basically a kids game and's it's very easy to do. You can, with one hour of training you can enter the circle and you can play. Yeah, I guess that's that's important in every aspect of life. You know when is look for a new adventure or something that looks beyond your capacities. Just think of it like that, like no, I'm just playing around. I'm just trying to do something and something good will come out for sure when your attitude is like that in capoeira you will go very far and I guess and also in other aspects. So for me, Capoeira is a way to de-problemize problems like to

Guido: you know, to see a problem and like yeah, okay, the problem is there but I don't care. It's going to be fine.

Servane Mouazan: I'm going to start with something and play it, play through it.

Guido: Yeah. Go with the flow. And this gives you a calm that, that makes you enables you to confront problems that look bigger than they seem or they seem to be bigger than they actually are and also to judge when the problem is too big. Okay. Then I go around it.

Servane Mouazan: Literally.

Guido: Yep, literally.

Servane Mouazan: O well thank you so much Guido for this beautiful allegory of Capoeira to help us understand how teams can grow and care for each other as well together and learn the the details to find, you know, to find ease and encouragement to continue.

Guido: Yeah, the Capoeira way is also very supportive. You know everybody feels welcome and needs to feel welcome in any group and any family, any team you need to feel welcome and you need to feel supported. Ah and you can, you can fight but even then you're supporting each other.

Servane Mouazan: Two truths can be true at the same timee.

Guido: Exactly.

Servane Mouazan: Thank you so much Guido Thank you.

Guido: Thanks Servane