How to be a Futures-Friendly Social Investor with Erika Brodnock

In this episode of Be & Think in the House of Trust, I loved listening to Erika Brodnock, an angel investor, a UK-based award-winning entrepreneur, CEO and founder of Kinhub, a philanthropist and behavioural scientist, on a mission to create fairer, more equitable workplaces for everyone. 

Erika works at the intersection of technology, well-being and product development, and she made it a purpose to find and clear paths out of outdated systems. She is the author of Extend Ventures’ Diversity Beyond Gender, the co-author of the TRANSPARENT Framework, and recently Better Venture. 

In the House of Trust, we discuss obstacles around diversity in the investment world, the barriers to entry for minoritised entrepreneurs seeking funding, and practical ways forward.

Plus, Erika shares her vision of a fairer, more equal future. 

Highlights from this episode: 

(04:15) This is the biggest issue with venture funding 

(08:03) The importance of getting to know people 

(10:57) The wealthiest place on Earth are the graveyards 

(15:44) Rising tides raise all boats 

(18:28) The white ally 

(20:21) What will the world be like in 2033? 

Useful Links 

Connect with Erika Brodnock on LinkedIn 

Kinhub https://www.kinhub.com/employers

Extend Ventures https://www.extend.vc/diversity-beyond-gender

(Report) TRANSPARENT Framework

(Book) Better Venture

{{footer}}

Transcript
Unknown:

Hello everyone, my name is Savannah and I welcome you

Unknown:

back to the house of trust. It's a podcast aimed at people who

Unknown:

love to invest in social change. In this show I'm talking to

Unknown:

investors will explore what it takes to show up face

Unknown:

uncomfortable truth and you're bold enough to listen reflect in

Unknown:

real time. Together, we look at what amplifies trust,

Unknown:

accountability impact, and we also look at assumptions that

Unknown:

slow us down. My guest today is Erica Brignac. She's a UK based

Unknown:

award winning entrepreneur, she's philanthropist and an

Unknown:

angel investor. And Erica's work is at the intersection of

Unknown:

technology wellbeing and product development. And she made it a

Unknown:

purpose to find and clear paths out of outdated systems. We're

Unknown:

going to talk to her about all these.

Unknown:

How are you Rico

Unknown:

Isodyne. Thanks so much for having me.

Unknown:

I'm so pleased that you can be free to talk to us today. You

Unknown:

are also a PhD candidate and Research Officer at LSE is the

Unknown:

inclusion initiative. And you are also co founder at extend

Unknown:

ventures, where you are leading research that aims to understand

Unknown:

and diversify access to venture capital and innovation finance

Unknown:

for ethnically diverse entrepreneurs. And that's not

Unknown:

it, you were also the author of diversity beyond gender and a co

Unknown:

author of the transparent framework and recently as well

Unknown:

better venture. So we can what feels your energy to find and

Unknown:

clear paths out of outdated system.

Unknown:

So I think for, for the most part, the the work that I do,

Unknown:

has been centered around problems that I faced as an

Unknown:

individual, whether that be as a parent, when I created charisma

Unknown:

kids, I was quite fed up of the fact that all of the technology

Unknown:

products that were on the market at the time, were geared at

Unknown:

creating humors of our children. So they were only encouraged to

Unknown:

consume technology or become consumed by technology. And I

Unknown:

wanted to build something where they were able to start to use

Unknown:

technology for their benefit and for good. So I created charisma

Unknown:

kids at the time that helps children to develop emotional

Unknown:

intelligence skills, and then to use those skills to learn how

Unknown:

to, to to just kind of be the best versions of themselves.

Unknown:

I've since gone on to to look at the access to funding,

Unknown:

particularly venture capital funding by ethnically diverse

Unknown:

entrepreneurs. And that was mainly because when I was

Unknown:

running charisma kids, I found it impossible to fundraise and

Unknown:

really considered hiring in a white male CEO, in order to, to

Unknown:

kind of be able to enable my business to progress and to

Unknown:

proceed. I felt that, you know, that wasn't fair. Because, you

Unknown:

know, at the time, we were being told that all businesses were

Unknown:

being judged on merits and we had enough merit as a company to

Unknown:

be able to fundraise, but I just still couldn't do it. That led

Unknown:

to me taking an MBA, and then to eventually the PhD in behavioral

Unknown:

science that looks at diversifying that access. So as

Unknown:

I say, I find that many of the problems that I faced are

Unknown:

problems that are being faced by much broader communities than

Unknown:

just myself. And then, you know, if I don't solve them who will?

Unknown:

Wow. And so the, there's a wealth of ideas that can come

Unknown:

out or recite, imagine and what more more came up for you during

Unknown:

this this kind of bumpy journey.

Unknown:

So there are a whole host of problems out there. And I think

Unknown:

that part of the biggest issue that I see with venture funding

Unknown:

being as kind of centered around traditional male, white, elite,

Unknown:

highly educated entrepreneurs means that actually, the

Unknown:

problems that exist for communities that sit outside of

Unknown:

that don't mean solved. So one example is that Asian women are

Unknown:

three times more likely to die in the child rearing period than

Unknown:

their white counterparts. Black women are four times more likely

Unknown:

to end to die in the child rearing periods than their white

Unknown:

counterparts. And there isn't anything at the moment that

Unknown:

solves that issue. Kin hub is the most recent company that I

Unknown:

founded. And that exists to ensure that everybody is

Unknown:

listened to. And but everybody receives personalized care

Unknown:

throughout life's journeys. And so we seek to solve the issue of

Unknown:

people not being listened to, of people being assumed to have

Unknown:

thicker skin, or to feel less pain, or the kind of one size

Unknown:

fits all approach to healthcare that has seen this, these

Unknown:

disparities created in the first place. Now, if people like me

Unknown:

aren't given any funding in order to ensure that our

Unknown:

businesses are able to thrive, we ended up in situations where

Unknown:

those those statistics persist. Those disadvantages, persist

Unknown:

them naturally over time. They keep increasing and being

Unknown:

magnified. And that just impacts all of society. And it also

Unknown:

causes problems for the VCs themselves who are missing out

Unknown:

on outsized returns, through solving some of these problems

Unknown:

that exist in communities that they're just currently

Unknown:

overlooking.

Unknown:

Wow. So we've I feel that the impact in Nepal, you know, the

Unknown:

social impact environmental impact, funding ecosystem sales

Unknown:

got a lot of homework to do. I wonder what would you think they

Unknown:

should experiment with to address this uncomfortable truth

Unknown:

that you've just enumerated that still don't getting solved?

Unknown:

So I think that the best thing to do is start to befriend

Unknown:

people and get to know people that they wouldn't ordinarily

Unknown:

associate with. It's a known fact that people make

Unknown:

investments based on gut instinct and gut feel, as

Unknown:

opposed to any of the things like data. I mean, we all say

Unknown:

that we make database decisions, very few people actually do, we

Unknown:

tend to make system one decisions, which are emotional

Unknown:

decisions. And then we will back that up with logic and the

Unknown:

system to thinking once the decision has already been made,

Unknown:

and confirmation bias, and all sorts of other bits and pieces

Unknown:

enable us to justify those decisions in our mind, once we

Unknown:

already made the emotional decision. There is also a

Unknown:

phenomenon called homophily, which says that, actually we

Unknown:

like people that are most like us, or that we already know, and

Unknown:

that we're already associated with. So for example, what we

Unknown:

see is that 70% of the money that's invested into early stage

Unknown:

venture goes to founding teams that have been to top 10

Unknown:

universities, across the US and the UK, that happens because 70%

Unknown:

or more of the venture capitalists have been to those

Unknown:

same university. And if you've been to my university, I believe

Unknown:

that you are the smartest out there, because actually, there's

Unknown:

that homophily that says that, you know, I, I know you I trust

Unknown:

you we think in the same way. And similarly if I'm the same

Unknown:

gender is you or them the same ethnicity as you, it's much

Unknown:

easier for me to find common ground with you and and build

Unknown:

the camaraderie that's needed to get the deal from from start to

Unknown:

close.

Unknown:

It you know why I'm feeling is I mean, there's maybe sometimes

Unknown:

not malevolence, enduring that people find they're comfortable

Unknown:

to be, you know, unrolling others, they know where they

Unknown:

seem to recognize, but where's the where's the space for

Unknown:

drawing man imagination and risk

Unknown:

in there. But the thing there isn't the space for genuine

Unknown:

imagination, and innovation. And this is why I was saying that,

Unknown:

in reality, venture capitalists are missing out on opportunities

Unknown:

that they could have, if for outsized returns from groups

Unknown:

that are being overlooked because of that homogeneity,

Unknown:

that is occurring as a result of homophily. So I think that the

Unknown:

first step that people can take is getting to know somebody

Unknown:

different. I sit on panels all the time, and people listen to

Unknown:

me speak and, and they're sometimes surprised that I can

Unknown:

be eloquent. They are surprised that I'm friendly, rather than

Unknown:

aggressive. And, you know, people won't necessarily display

Unknown:

this outwardly. But if you look at micro aggressions, you can

Unknown:

start to see that coming through. I think that actually

Unknown:

if people got to know me, rather than just looking skin deep,

Unknown:

they would understand that I'm here quite, you know, I'm just a

Unknown:

normal person, like everybody else, and there isn't the need

Unknown:

to fear me. And I think that if people start to understand that,

Unknown:

that a lot of the fear based stereotypes and an information

Unknown:

is out there has been information that was created in

Unknown:

the times of abolition when people were making or creating

Unknown:

propaganda because they wanted slavery to continue, as opposed

Unknown:

to being true now today, then they would make different

Unknown:

decisions. But until you get to know somebody, and you

Unknown:

understand that actually, all of the things that you once feared

Unknown:

aren't really necessarily true. You just don't know what you

Unknown:

don't know.

Unknown:

So it's interesting because it feels as if the opposite of fear

Unknown:

is curiosity.

Unknown:

Absolutely.

Unknown:

So in your extend venture, report, their diversity beyond

Unknown:

gender, which relates, there's some information in there that

Unknown:

you just mentioned, I read the the opening quote, and I wanted

Unknown:

to just drop it by you again, that opening quote by Les Brown,

Unknown:

the wealthiest place on the planet is the graveyard because

Unknown:

in the graveyard, we will find inventions that we were never

Unknown:

ever exposed to ideas, dreams, that never became a reality. And

Unknown:

then wonder what what, what would make it easier for

Unknown:

investors to to accept that dreaming and that curiosity and

Unknown:

that imagining without fear as an avenue to, to create more

Unknown:

inclusive wealth?

Unknown:

I think that, as I say, the first step comes with getting to

Unknown:

know people, I think, if you're able to get to know people and

Unknown:

understand that there's far more that unites us than separates us

Unknown:

and and you get to know people and start to listen to their

Unknown:

ideas and their thinking and their, their visions for the

Unknown:

future, then you you open yourself up to the possibilities

Unknown:

of being able to, to go on those journeys with those

Unknown:

entrepreneurs to understand them and to facilitate those

Unknown:

journeys. And that's the job of, of a venture capitalist or an

Unknown:

impact investor, is to facilitate the dreams of someone

Unknown:

that has the kind of creativity and the imagination for, for

Unknown:

innovative advance. I genuinely believe that at the moment, we

Unknown:

have a world in which there are a multitude of bias, if we're

Unknown:

going to correct any of those biases going forward, we need to

Unknown:

make sure that all sectors of society have a seat at the table

Unknown:

in the creation of the future. With these investments that are

Unknown:

being made. Now we're creating the future that we'll see

Unknown:

tomorrow. If we're not making sure that that's fair, and I'm

Unknown:

biased. At this point, it will come the biases that exist today

Unknown:

will just continue to kind of be proliferated through the ages,

Unknown:

particularly with the advancement of AI, they will be

Unknown:

magnified. So it's imperative that we we do start to just

Unknown:

think a little bit outside of our networks, and outside of the

Unknown:

box on this

Unknown:

to curiosity to facilitating other people's dreams. I read

Unknown:

that the job description of investors and we need to really

Unknown:

accelerate that pace. Otherwise, we're going to be totally

Unknown:

overwhelmed by the kind of technology that can be also

Unknown:

misused. In that sense. It strikes me that in all the work

Unknown:

you do, and and we've we go back a long time. So I remember

Unknown:

interviewing you for a research on women in social

Unknown:

entrepreneurship. Back then, I was a European research. It

Unknown:

strikes me that that the values that that are coming up in you

Unknown:

your work, they are transparency, fairness,

Unknown:

convening, dreaming, activating, facilitating, and I wonder which

Unknown:

one has got most muscle? And how does it help you show up?

Unknown:

I think that convening and agitating, I would say are the

Unknown:

things that I do best, it's kind of pulling people together

Unknown:

around something that needs to be changed and lighting a fire

Unknown:

that that can continue to burn long beyond myself is the hope

Unknown:

for lots of the work that I do

Unknown:

was beautiful. And do you call a third piece of work we the LSE

Unknown:

and MasterCard called the transparent framework, which

Unknown:

aims to create real and systemic change for black professional

Unknown:

women in finance, big tech. Then professional services. Also

Unknown:

there were some agitation and convening as well going on

Unknown:

there. And so for our audience to transparent framework

Unknown:

transparent is in the acronym for team culture, role models,

Unknown:

advocacy networks, systemic change, pay authenticity, real

Unknown:

identity experience, networks, again, but the external network

Unknown:

as opposed to internal, and training. And it strikes me that

Unknown:

there's a interconnectedness of all these elements that

Unknown:

contribute to creating a better working environment for for

Unknown:

everyone here. And I wonder what is what is your call to action

Unknown:

here.

Unknown:

So rising tides, raise all boats. And if you make an

Unknown:

environment that's conducive for a black woman to work in, we've

Unknown:

proven with the precursor to that research that black women

Unknown:

are the least likely to be in the top 1% of earners, and the

Unknown:

least likely to thrive in corporate environments. And

Unknown:

that's not through a deficiency on their part, it's through

Unknown:

toxic environments for the most part. And so if you're able to

Unknown:

create environments in which black women are able to thrive,

Unknown:

then everybody else is able to do better as well. And I guess,

Unknown:

from my own perspective, I haven't worked in corporate

Unknown:

environments for many years. But I do believe that black women

Unknown:

needs to start to earn as much as their white peers, they need

Unknown:

to start to, to build intergenerational wealth for

Unknown:

future generations, and they need to be able to have

Unknown:

expendable income that they can invest in the technology that I

Unknown:

was talking about that is going to shape the future. So if we

Unknown:

create environment, corporate environments that are enabling

Unknown:

black women to thrive and reach the pinnacle of their careers,

Unknown:

we will we will therefore create income into communities that are

Unknown:

historically underfunded, and we can start to create some

Unknown:

mechanisms and ecosystems for funding startups ourselves.

Unknown:

Of course button makes total sense. And I wonder we can, what

Unknown:

more did you learn by doing this, this piece of work that

Unknown:

you didn't expect?

Unknown:

I learned an incredible amount about the resilience of black

Unknown:

women, the the number of women I did a listening tour with four

Unknown:

women and a number of women that kind of, you know, explained

Unknown:

that they needed to move out of their organization's

Unknown:

consistently in order to move up in their careers, that, you

Unknown:

know, tales of harassment, sexual harassment, out and out

Unknown:

racism, micro aggressions, you know, the, the, the experience,

Unknown:

the collective experience of black women in UK corporations

Unknown:

is, is one that is not easy. And I think that again, if I'm able

Unknown:

to start to create conversations that ensure that when women are

Unknown:

being considered black women are also being considered, that, for

Unknown:

me is a fire that will burn long, long after I've left this

Unknown:

earthly plane, and will ensure that we create a stronger future

Unknown:

for those that come after me. And that's, that's really a key

Unknown:

thing. The most important thing that I learned, though, through

Unknown:

that research surveying was that actually, when black women had

Unknown:

been had been able to thrive within organizations, there was

Unknown:

usually an empathetic, white male ally, and sometimes a white

Unknown:

female ally, that had provided some advocacy and sponsorship

Unknown:

for that black female to be able to kind of get to, to where she

Unknown:

had gotten. Somebody took it and took her under their wing, or

Unknown:

made her success, their business. And I think that

Unknown:

that's one of the most important lessons for the community that's

Unknown:

going to be listening to this podcast, befriending

Unknown:

understanding getting to know and using your privilege, no

Unknown:

matter how small that privilege may be, to ensure that you

Unknown:

extend sponsorship and advocacy to someone who has less

Unknown:

privileged than you is the the most important thing that you

Unknown:

could do for 2023, in my opinion,

Unknown:

wow. That's interesting, because I connect that back to what you

Unknown:

said earlier, where you were adamant that people need that

Unknown:

curiosity, but they need to facilitate as well things to

Unknown:

happen. So that brings us back to back to the your initial

Unknown:

comments. So we've got to game for you. It's a future thinking

Unknown:

game. So imagine we are in 2033, you know, few years ahead of us.

Unknown:

And I wonder you speak from the present 2033. What has happened

Unknown:

recently that keeps making the headline? View? Do you think?

Unknown:

Okay, so in in my ideal world, what's recently happened is that

Unknown:

there's a thriving ecosystem of venture capital and unicorns in

Unknown:

the UK, we've gone from the the number of unicorns that we have

Unknown:

now, I think it's around about 150 to 700 unicorns over the

Unknown:

last 10 years. And the number of unicorns that exist now that are

Unknown:

led by Black Company, black founders, is equal to their,

Unknown:

their proportion in society.

Unknown:

Wow. And knowing that this is happening, we're still in 2033.

Unknown:

Would you think is there a behavior that had made this

Unknown:

possible for people in the sector?

Unknown:

So the we stopped offering mentoring programs and skills

Unknown:

development programs, and started to ensure that

Unknown:

entrepreneurs had the capital, the connections, and the

Unknown:

contracts that they needed to get their early stage businesses

Unknown:

off the ground, and those businesses grew. And they exited

Unknown:

for a billion dollar valuations. And then there was an ecosystem

Unknown:

that had been created, which meant that those who had exited,

Unknown:

reinvested back into the new entrepreneurs and, and then we

Unknown:

created the flywheel that ensured that actually, the

Unknown:

access problem, the pipeline problem that doesn't even exist

Unknown:

at the moment, just just completely frittered away. There

Unknown:

were new divers on entrepreneurs coming through all the time,

Unknown:

because they saw role models that they were able to look up

Unknown:

to, they realized that entrepreneurship was for them.

Unknown:

They felt as though they belonged in that sector. And

Unknown:

they were then funded, they went themselves into corporations who

Unknown:

also accepted the sale at the end of the day, and bought from

Unknown:

them. So supply chains became more diverse over the years. And

Unknown:

you know, now that we're in 2020 2033, we see that

Unknown:

businesses are buying from entrepreneurs that come from all

Unknown:

walks of life, not just the historic ones.

Unknown:

Oh, wonderful. So that's the future we should all aspire to.

Unknown:

To reach to connect to reconnect with. So thank you so much for

Unknown:

sharing these stories of connectedness facilitation ally

Unknown:

ship and, and just care for everyone. Thank you, Erica. It

Unknown:

was a pleasure talking with you.

Unknown:

An absolute pleasure to speak with you too. Thanks again for

Unknown:

having me.

Unknown:

Thank you. So I look forward to welcoming you back to the house

Unknown:

of trust again next time to get the next episode. Subscribe to

Unknown:

our show anywhere you can find your podcast and be and think in

Unknown:

the house of trust for more insights and opportunities to

Unknown:

think independently for yourself or your team. Head to my

Unknown:

websites have been was not good at you can sign up for my

Unknown:

regular conscious innovation updates. And this is all for

Unknown:

people who love to invest in social change and ignite a

Unknown:

positive impact. So I look forward to connecting with you

Unknown:

soon.

Contact Us

We're not around right now. But you can send us an email and we'll get back to you, asap.

Not readable? Change text. captcha txt
Unlocking Finance Through Radical Generosity with Vicki Saunders
Investing with Compassion and Abundance with Bonnie Chiu